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Thread: lost ANOTHER DEALEY WITNESS..

  1. #1

    Default lost ANOTHER DEALEY WITNESS..

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4b9da7b.html

    It’s strange how many questions are begged by this account. You might think that every fraction of a second would be indelibly stamped in her memory bank, yet only the merest impression is related, and inaccurately at that (re the Z-frames).

    Another lost as time marches inexorably onwards…B

  2. #2

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    Is this the woman who returned to the office to write one of the first reports on the assassination? And then as the 'official' story began to take hold her story was kind of ...withdrawn...? If it is the one I am thinking of she wrote about a shot from the GK area.
    "I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

    The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.
    Karl Marx.

    "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies, 1963, replied Ms Rice Davies when the prosecuting counsel pointed out that Lord Astor denied an affair or having even met her.

  3. #3
    Myra Bronstein Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Moore View Post
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4b9da7b.html

    It’s strange how many questions are begged by this account. You might think that every fraction of a second would be indelibly stamped in her memory bank, yet only the merest impression is related, and inaccurately at that (re the Z-frames).

    Another lost as time marches inexorably onwards…B
    Was she ever interviewed by someone dependable? Like Mark Lane.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myra Bronstein View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Moore View Post
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4b9da7b.html

    It’s strange how many questions are begged by this account. You might think that every fraction of a second would be indelibly stamped in her memory bank, yet only the merest impression is related, and inaccurately at that (re the Z-frames).

    Another lost as time marches inexorably onwards…B
    Was she ever interviewed by someone dependable? Like Mark Lane.

    not that i can find on a search.....perhaps within his books.....there was two woman mckinnon (sp )and mary woodward connected to shots from the knoll area....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5

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    chwrylmckinnon...Henry Hurt " Reasonable Doubt" page 111

    The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
    Shortcut to: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:o_KnulGNN0oJ:hum.uchicago.edu/~jagoldsm/Papers/JFK/7_Event.pdf+mckinnon+cheryl+%2B+JFK+assassination& hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=ca

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magda Hassan View Post
    Is this the woman who returned to the office to write one of the first reports on the assassination? And then as the 'official' story began to take hold her story was kind of ...withdrawn...? If it is the one I am thinking of she wrote about a shot from the GK area.
    http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcb...ng_type=search

    Robin Unger initiated a very informative thread on Mary E. Woodward at the above link, reproducing of her piece on the assassination, “Witness From the News Describes Assassination,” Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, section 1, page 3:

    “Four of us from Women’s News, Maggie Brown, Aurelia Alonzo, my room mate Ann Donaldson, and myself…My first reaction, and also my friends’, was that as a joke, somebody had backfired their car… The cars behind stopped and several men – Secret Service men, I suppose – got out and started rushing forward, obstructing our view of the President’s car.”
    Elsewhere in the same thread, Robin posted this:

    FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

    Date December 7, 1963

    MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD, 4812 Alcott, employee, Woman's News, "Dallas Morning News," Dallas, Texas, advised that she, AURELIA ALONZO, MARGARET BROWN and ANNE DONALDSON, on November 22, 1963 left the office of the "Dallas Morning NEWS" just about 12:00 noon to observe the Presidential Motorcade.

    They walked to Elm Street and stopped in front of the Texas School Book Depository building, but were located a short distance down the street near the second light post. They were standing in this spot when the Presidential Motorcade came by. She stated she was watching President and Mrs. KENNEDY closely, and all of her group cheered loudly as they went by. Just as the President and Mrs. KENNEDY went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. KENNEDY probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President KENNEDY fall over and Mrs. KENNEDY jumped up and started crawling over the back of the car. She stated that her first reaction was that the shots had been fired from above her head and from possibly behind her. Her next reaction was that the shots might have come from the overpass which was to her right. She stated, however, because of the loud echo, she could not say where the shots had come from, other than they had come from above her head. She stated that she had seen about five or six persons standing on top of the overpass, and possibly this is why her first reaction was to look at the top of this overpass. She never at any time saw anything in the hands of the people on the overpass. She never looked at any time toward the Texas School Book Depository building, and stated she could not furnish any information regarding anyone who appeared to be leaving the area, as there was a lot of confusion and everyone was running around.

    She and her friends stayed for a few minutes under a tree on the grounds of the Texas School Book Depository building, as she thought that she was going to be sick. After standing under this tree for a few minutes, they returned to their office. She stated she did not know RUBY or OSWALD and stated to her knowledge she did not see either RUBY or OSWALD at the scene of the assassination.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    on 12/6/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43

    By Special Agent HENRY J. OLIVER, DAVID R. BARRY Date Dictated 12/6/63

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Rigby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Magda Hassan View Post
    Is this the woman who returned to the office to write one of the first reports on the assassination? And then as the 'official' story began to take hold her story was kind of ...withdrawn...? If it is the one I am thinking of she wrote about a shot from the GK area.
    http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcb...ng_type=search

    Robin Unger initiated a very informative thread on Mary E. Woodward at the above link, reproducing of her piece on the assassination, “Witness From the News Describes Assassination,” Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, section 1, page 3:

    “Four of us from Women’s News, Maggie Brown, Aurelia Alonzo, my room mate Ann Donaldson, and myself…My first reaction, and also my friends’, was that as a joke, somebody had backfired their car… The cars behind stopped and several men – Secret Service men, I suppose – got out and started rushing forward, obstructing our view of the President’s car.”
    Elsewhere in the same thread, Robin posted this:

    FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

    Date December 7, 1963

    MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD, 4812 Alcott, employee, Woman's News, "Dallas Morning News," Dallas, Texas, advised that she, AURELIA ALONZO, MARGARET BROWN and ANNE DONALDSON, on November 22, 1963 left the office of the "Dallas Morning NEWS" just about 12:00 noon to observe the Presidential Motorcade.

    They walked to Elm Street and stopped in front of the Texas School Book Depository building, but were located a short distance down the street near the second light post. They were standing in this spot when the Presidential Motorcade came by. She stated she was watching President and Mrs. KENNEDY closely, and all of her group cheered loudly as they went by. Just as the President and Mrs. KENNEDY went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. KENNEDY probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President KENNEDY fall over and Mrs. KENNEDY jumped up and started crawling over the back of the car. She stated that her first reaction was that the shots had been fired from above her head and from possibly behind her. Her next reaction was that the shots might have come from the overpass which was to her right. She stated, however, because of the loud echo, she could not say where the shots had come from, other than they had come from above her head. She stated that she had seen about five or six persons standing on top of the overpass, and possibly this is why her first reaction was to look at the top of this overpass. She never at any time saw anything in the hands of the people on the overpass. She never looked at any time toward the Texas School Book Depository building, and stated she could not furnish any information regarding anyone who appeared to be leaving the area, as there was a lot of confusion and everyone was running around.

    She and her friends stayed for a few minutes under a tree on the grounds of the Texas School Book Depository building, as she thought that she was going to be sick. After standing under this tree for a few minutes, they returned to their office. She stated she did not know RUBY or OSWALD and stated to her knowledge she did not see either RUBY or OSWALD at the scene of the assassination.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    on 12/6/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43

    By Special Agent HENRY J. OLIVER, DAVID R. BARRY Date Dictated 12/6/63
    paul all that info i am quite positive originally comes from rich's from a thread..it has been posted down through the years manys a time...most originally came from jack white...if you go to the f...and do a search you may find it.....also look for the info i posted on vivian castleberry and her niece...i cannot find it of course...on this so and so lap if you cannot i will get some of the cds out and look up the info...for all.........:hmpf:..best b..
    Last edited by Bernice Moore; 10-30-2009 at 10:04 PM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Moore View Post
    paul all that info i am quite positive originally comes from rich's from a thread..it has been posted down through the years manys a time...most originally came from jack white...if you go to the f...and do a search you may find it.....also look for the info i posted on vivian castleberry and her niece...i cannot find it of course...on this so and so lap if you cannot i will get some of the cds out and look up the info...for all.........:hmpf:..best b..
    You're doubtless right, B., and I'll have a look over at Rich's forum tomorrow. Thanks for the tip.

    Meantime, however, a question that's long detained me but one which I've never broached publicly: Is there anywhere in the literature of the assassination, be it official, quasi-official, oppositional, or merely pseudo-oppositional, an honest, sustained examination of the principle(s) of witness selection?

    I mean by that, something which does more than say "the Government ignored grassy knoll witnesses - here is a list of them." That's old hat, and dodges as many questions as it answers. No, what I have in mind is something which elaborates on why, for example, Woodward was ignored, but, say, Holland not etc.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Rigby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Moore View Post
    paul all that info i am quite positive originally comes from rich's from a thread..it has been posted down through the years manys a time...most originally came from jack white...if you go to the f...and do a search you may find it.....also look for the info i posted on vivian castleberry and her niece...i cannot find it of course...on this so and so lap if you cannot i will get some of the cds out and look up the info...for all.........:hmpf:..best b..
    You're doubtless right, B., and I'll have a look over at Rich's forum tomorrow. Thanks for the tip.

    Meantime, however, a question that's long detained me but one which I've never broached publicly: Is there anywhere in the literature of the assassination, be it official, quasi-official, oppositional, or merely pseudo-oppositional, an honest, sustained examination of the principle(s) of witness selection?

    I mean by that, something which does more than say "the Government ignored grassy knoll witnesses - here is a list of them." That's old hat, and dodges as many questions as it answers. No, what I have in mind is something which elaborates on why, for example, Woodward was ignored, but, say, Holland not etc.
    paul....great question...another :help:if there is such and i do have the book handy it should be and something is niggling....:toilet:lol......it may be in THE ''book THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F KENNEDY A COMPREHENSIVE HISTORICAL AND LEGAL BIBLIOGRAPHY 1963...1979...DELlOYD J.GUTH...AND DAVID WRONE..1980.....THIS INFO BELOW MAY BE OF INTEREST.. though i do not agree with the green man thread or theory..to each their own...MY OWN PERSONAL THOUGHTS ARE ANYONE OR ANYTHING THAT POSSIBLY GAVE INFORMATION ON A SECOND SHOOTER MEANING A CONSPIRACY WAS TOSSED ASIDE.....NOT WANTED..DISTORTED TRASHED IGNORED AND THOSE THAT DID MADE OUT TO BE CRAZY AS THEY STILL DO TODAY.........BEST B..

    posted on 20-1-2006 @ 01:15 AM JFK First Witness Accounts With The Zapruder Film Faking and Other Photo's

    External Source

    - French author Emile Zola

    "If you shut up the truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way."


    Memory

    Memory is something that changes over time. This is the main reason why statements are made of any crime scene as soon as possible after the event. A fresh record for prosterity. Memory also suffers from "interference" after an event. That interference quite often comes in the form of what others are saying about the event, what the Government and Newspapers are also saying. This is why in court case we often hear the line. "may I refer the witness to their original statement". This is because it has been found that the original statement did not suffer much adverse "interference" and was a Fairly accurate record of events.
    Having said this short term memory can be affected by traumatic events. The mind has the amazing ability to shut down and "fog" over when confronted with horrific events, details will not be so clear and time frames of events will often be difficult to collaborate between witnesses. This type of memory interference is different to the adverse outside influence coming from later recalls of the events which have been tainted with such things as ridicule of what the witness has stated, confusion over what the TV and Newspapers have stated, disinformation spreads and general discussion of the event with others.
    The short Term memory recollections are a fresh and untainted "record" of events witnessed, but sometimes with details missed in crucial parts and not spoken of due to the brain shut down mechanisms. These are the points that often witnesses bring up at later times, "oh I forgot, this happned too". At later times the story can grow out of proportion into something mixed between truth and fantasy. I say "can" because they are many people who retain memory better than others and can accurately recite events to the point years afterwards, as there are other people who are not affected by a brain shut down or fogging over, clouding of short term memory of events.
    Both these points are the reason why in legal circles that the first deposition/affidavit and statement are not taken in a court room on their own ground. The witness is re questioned with often more details emerging and at times tainted details as spoken of above are entered into the record.
    Then we look at bias and embellishment, once again a good reason why courts hold so much stock in first accounts by witnesses. Bias and embellishment usually occurs after the event when the witness makes their role in the event "stronger" than it was and "to make it sound better". First accounts can be embellished if a witness purposefully wishes to hide a truth or to hide guilt.
    For these reasons, the legal system does not rely on one single persons testimony to achieve conclusion. As many witness statements are taken as possible.
    In the JFK assassination debate and research there are many theories and ideas, witness statements vary from person to person and each person's own accounts vary over time. Films and photographic evidence does not match with each other and certainly do not match with witness accounts. Witnesses have come out of the "woodwork" so to speak, over the years to add to an already growing story which has become much less of he truth than when the event first occured.

    Department Of Misinformation

    Then there is the Department of Misinformation. In the JFK debate and research the Department of Misinformation "DoM" or Department of Disinformation "DoD" has been kept busy throwing in voices of dissent to opinions put on the table for debate greatly over the years, sidetracking people who "are on to something", discrediting those same researchers, personally discrediting people in any area they can, bringing in "experts" to "argue" and stifle people's opinions and to twist and turn to story further into chaos and confusion.
    DoM will attack weaker points of an argument and sidetrack debate away from the main points made by the person in the first place. Alinksy's rulebook says only argue a persons view on points you can win. Opinions and theories are often attacked with venom, with viscious personal attacks that leave the person they are directed to, stuptdefied, bamboozled, violated and wondering whether they should have bothered speaking out in the first place, other subjects and areas of the persons life and views are bought into play for the express point of discrediting.
    DoM agents are trained in the "Art of War" friendships and alliances are made in order to glean the persons views and standpoints, only to rip the person to shreds at a later time. If anything is spoken of by the person believing themselves to be a victim of DoM they are further ridiculed and dismissed as paranoid. The DoM is expert in their field.
    People are called nutjobs, idiots, told their research is stupid, ideas are silly or stupid and dismissed with ridicule, told they are way out on a limb, told they are paranoid and much more.
    The Delphi technique and other group control mechanisms are deployed in abundance. Divide and conquer, expose weak spots, destroy reputations. If those tactics do not work then more sinister methods are employed to Shut the person up. For these reasons, researchers turn secretive, not trusting others and careful of their words for fear the DoM will rip them to shreds.
    A visit around the various groups forums and websites regarding the JFK assassination is a fascinating journey of different theories and disinformation - misinformation.
    This misinformation and disinformation has been designed to keep people going in circles and to keep people away from the truth, instead of one conspiracy theory we find a minefield of red herrings.

    Some of First accounts by eywitnesses taken on the day - not including the secret service and police testimony

    The reason why this particular thread is dealing with the first accounts by witnesses should be fairly obvious. Oswald was arrested shortly after the crime and from that moment "an official line" was indellibly stamped on memories of all witnesses, in fact most of America and the world. Witnesses then become further biased and the offical ine and their memories start to meld together, forming a sort of half truth. As previously stated witness models and tests throughout time have told of "the chinese whispers" phenomena and the fact that no two memories are the same. We know that 40 first account witnesses will have slighlty different stories. Where their stories become interesting is where two or more accounts match.
    We have a strange inconsistency with the Warren Commision. As previously discussed here and in other posts, the actual amount of witnesses close to the assassination is extremely low. The many articles and reports on the day talk of the route being covered by thousands and thousands of well wishers.....and then we get to Dealey Plaza. According to the photographic evidence, there was hardly any people in Elm Street to witness the assassination. Very few, too few. Why was this? According to reports no officials were assigned in Dealey Plaza and yet there was barely anyone there to witness the assassination as compared to the rest of the route.
    I know for one if I went to see the president that Day, Dealey Plaza would have been my first spot to head to after I got to the area and scouted around looking for a good vantage point. Logic states if there is not many people down there, one would get a much better view than being crammed in like a can of sardines as was Houston and Main Streets.
    but no, we have a few people up on the triple underpass bridge, probably less than ten and down on Elm Street itself once again we have well less than fifty witnesses spread down through the street after the corner and that includes the few we can see running in the "films". When the headshot took place, in the immediate vicinity we have the following. Mr Newman, Mrs Newman, children x 2, Mr and Mrs Chism and child, Mary Moorman, Charles Brehm and son, two ladies near the Newmans??, two photographers running near moorman, a family group down from Moorman, the Babushska lady, Umbrella dude, dark complected man, steps man, maroon man(on steps)a man and woman down near underpass, fallover man near Moorman and the family group, 2nd darkcomplected man sitting next to steps man and one or two others down near underpass, oh and mr Zapruder up on his block with his "employee" Orville Nix and "Muchmore". There were a sprinkling of others behind and one or two may be missed but according to the films and photos of the day, these were the main witnesses to the assassination. Not many at all.
    One would think as a side note that these people would be immediately identified and immediate witness statements taken. Well a few were, but oddly enough many of those people have never been identified and never come foward to make any type of statement. But the part that stands out the most is the number of these witnesses mentioned above that did not get called to testify at the Waren Commission.



    External Source

    http://www.jfk-info.com/whitmey1.htm
    Although Jean was never requested to testify further in Washington, at least she was included in the fifteen volumes of testimony, mainly because of Lane's reference to her. Many other important eyewitnesses who were overlooked by the Warren Commission's staff included: Mary Woodward and her three colleagues; Charles Brehm and his son; Carolyn Arnold; Hugh Betzner, Jr.; Jack Bell; John and Marvin Chism; Ruby Henderson; Mary Hollies; Sam Kinney; Glenn Bennett; Mary Ann Moorman; Mr. and Mrs. W. Newman; Orville Nix; J.C. Price; Norman Similas; Marilyn Sitzman; Malcolm Summers; Richard Carr; Marvin Robinson; Carolyn Walthers; and Beverly Oliver (if she was indeed the "Babushka Lady").


    The question to ask is why were these people not called to testify? These are valuable eyewitnesses to an assassination that is possibly high treason. Without these eyewitness accounts added into the Warren Commision as evidence, it effectively renders the Warren Commsion to be biased and of no benefit to the investigation at all. In fact it renders the Warren Commision a completely useless fluffball. Fortunately we have some of those witnesses who were not called with affidavits made on the day of the assassination as follows.

    http://www.jfk-online.com/summers.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/wnewman.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/gnewman.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/moorman.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/henderson.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/kinney.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/betzner.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/jchism.html
    http://www.jfk-online.com/mchism.html

    Witness First Accounts and Zapruder Film and other films/photos

    When looking at the first statements made on the day of the assassination we find a few "consistencies" of value worth noting that do not match up to Zapruder and or other photos and films of the day. This includes some of the witnesses testimony that were not called to the Warren Commision. We find inconsistencies as with most witness statements we know are going to be in there, including the number of shots fired and the direction they came in.
    First we will look at a few consistencies in first account statements that should be examined and pondered when approaching the JFK Assassination debate. A major point came to light in the examination of the first accounts and that was of Jackies and Johns movements before and during the assassination to quote


    External Source

    John Chism
    I was standing with my wife and three year old boy, we were directly in front of the Stemmons Freeway sign, as the motorcade rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm.
    When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, The President, sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side. At this point, I saw Mrs. Kennedy stand up and pull his head over in her lap, and then lay down over him as if to shield him.
    (Footnote - Mayet) Note above this is first shot second shot hadn't come.
    And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired.
    At this point, I looked behind me, to see whether it was a fireworks display or something. And then I saw a lot of people running for cover, behind the embankment there back up on the grass.
    And at this point, I turned back around and saw the motorcade beginning to speed up, and everybody was laying down but the driver, of course. I didn't notice where it went.
    My wife and I began seeking cover, and we went to our car, and then we told the policeman about what we knew.


    - So we have Mr Chism saying that the President was standing up in the car waving to everyone until he was in front of Mr Chism until the first shot made him fall back in his seat.
    - We also have Mrs Kennedy standing up to pull Mr Kennedy down onto her Before the second shot.
    - The driver turns back at the same time as the second shot?????
    - Chism notes alot of people running for cover behind the embankment.


    External Source

    Mrs Chism
    I was with my husband and three year old child, we were standing at the corner where the sign says "Stemmons Freeway" to the right.
    As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left. The Presidents wife immediately stood over him, and she pulled him up, and lay him down in the seat, and she stood up over him in the car. The President was standing and waving and smiling at the people when the shot happened.
    Note once again this was the first shot
    And then there was a second shot that I heard, after the President's wife had pulled him down in the seat. It came from what I thought was behind us and I looked but I couldn't see anything.
    The two men in the front of the car stood up, and then when the second shot was fired, they all fell down and the car took off just like that. After the motorcade went by, after that, I jumped up and headed for my car, we were parked up on the freeway. A police patrolman came up where we were, and we told him what we say.


    - Once again Mrs Chism speaks of the President standing before the first shot.
    - She also confims the statement of Jackie standing up and pulling John down in the seat before the second shot
    - mentions the two men in the front of the car standing up and then falling down after the second shot.


    External Source

    Mrs Newman
    My husband Billy, myself and our children were standing about halfway between the corner of Elm and Houston and the underpass. We were the last people in line going toward the underpass. When President Kennedy's car was about ten feet from us. I heard a noise like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor Connally kind of grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car. When I first saw and heard all of this, I thought it was all of a joke. Just about the time President Kennedy was right in front of us, I heard another shot ring out, and the President put his hands up to his head. I saw blood all over the side of his head. About this time Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and he kind of lay over to the side kind of in her arms. Then my husband, Billy, said it is a shot. We grabbed our two children and my husband lay on one child and I lay on the other one in the grass. We started to get up and then all of a sudden we lay back down, [sic] I don't know what it was but another shot may have been fired that caused us to lay back down. Everyone started running back toward the brick structure. We got up and went back there. Everyone was saying,


    - Gayle Newman carries the similiar testimony to the Chism as far as the reactions by Jackie go. The only difference is the shot sequence. Mrs Newman says it was the third shot that was the head shot. The Chisms mentioned two shots only.
    - Mrs Newman mentions President putting his head in his hands after the first shot. This is not seen in the Zap film or any other film.
    - Mrs Newman mentions the President laying over on Jackie in her arms on his side.


    External Source

    Mr Newman
    Today at about 12:45 pm I was standing in a group of people on Elm Street near the west end of the concrete standard when the President's car turned left off Houston Street onto Elm Street. We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot [sic]. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head. Then he fell back and Governor Connally was holding his middle section. Then we fell down on the grass as it seemed we were in direct path of fire. It looked like Mrs. Kennedy jumped on top of the President. He kinda [sic] fell back and it looked like she was holding him. Then the car sped away and everybody in that area had run upon [sic] top of that little mound. I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward the Texas School Book Depository. I looked back in the vacinity [sic] of the garden.


    - We have Mr Newman also saying the President was standing up
    - Mrs Kennedy jumped on top of the president
    - Mrs Kennedy was holding him
    - Mr Newman also mention being in a group of people but yet according to the photo below, he was pretty much alone with his wife and children and not in a gropup at all.

    external image

    Other Witnesses


    External Source

    Jean Newman
    I was standing right on this side of the Stemmons Freeway sign, about half-way between the sign and the edge of the building on the corner. I was by myself, there were other people around watching the motorcade. The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.
    By this time, the motorcade never did stop, and the President fell to his left and his wife jumped up on her knees, I believe it was, in the back of the car on her knees, I couldn't say that for sure. And I realized then it had been a shot. I looked in the car and she was on her knees, and he wasn't even visible in the car. I looked around then, and everyone was running every which way, I don't know why I didn't run, I just stood there and backed up and looked around to see if I could see anything, but I saw no one whatever with anything that resembled a gun or anything of that kind.
    I just heard two shots. When it happened, I was just looking at the President and his wife, and when she jumped up in the car, I had my vision focused on her, and I didn't see anything else, about the others in the front of the car.


    -Mentions president falling to the left.
    - Does not mention how John is positioned but does mention Jackie jumping up on her knees, not that she would be able to tell from behind whether Jackie was standing or just on her knees. The fact remains this is not what Zapruder shows.


    External Source

    Holland
    I was standing on top of the triple underpass and the President's Car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over and I looked toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade through the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off.


    - Mentions Jackie jumping up to get to pesident after the firs shot
    - After first shot president slumped over.
    - Mentions after the first shot the secret service in the car raising up with a machine gun.


    External Source

    Betzner

    Then I saw a flash of pink like someone standing up and then sitting back down in the car
    I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped.
    I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air. I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pull out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car.
    http://www.jfk-online.com/betzner.html


    Then we get to steps man.. Mr Hudson


    External Source

    Hudson
    This day a was sitting on the front steps of the sloping area and about half way down the steps. There was another man sitting there with me. He was sitting on my left and we were both facing the street with our backs to the railroad yards and the brick building. At the same time the President's car was directly in front of us, I heard a shot and I saw the President fall over in the seat. I do not know who this other man was that was sitting beside me. In our conversation he talked about having a hard time finding a place to park. He also talked about working somewhere over on Industrial Blvd. This man said Lay down and we did. I definately [sic] heard 3 shots. The shots that I heard definately [sic] came from behind and above me. When I laid down on the ground I laid on my right side and my view was still toward the street where the President's car had passed.


    Hudsons testimony on that first day is interesting because of a couple of points. One major one being He was sitting down
    At no time in that first statement does he say he was standing up. This contradicts all of the photos taken at that time of the sequence and also contradicts the nix film and the muchmore film.

    Then we come to Jean Hill, one of the most interesting witnesses of the assassination. Mrs Hill was made to look a fool for saying that jackie and John were looking at a small dog on the seat beside them. Thee was no dog so this went far to discredit Mrs Hill. What did not come to light until 25 years later was that in fact there was a small stuffed animal dog that was on the seat between the president and his wife that a well wisher had given the first lady.


    External Source

    Jean Hill
    The Presidents [sic] car came around the corner and it was over on our side of the street. Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the president and Jackie in the back seat and they were looking at a little dog between them. Just as the president looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackies [sic] lap and she fell across his back and said "My God he has been shot". Three was an instant pause between the first two shots and the motorcade seemingly halted for an instant and three or four more shots rang out and the motorcade sped away. I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg saying "Get down thery [sic] are shooting". I looked across the street and up the hill and saw a man running toward the monument and I started running over there.</I>


    - She states she ran across Elm Street up the Grassy Knoll and yet Bond pictures show her first sitting, and then standing in position on Dealey Plaza for over a minute after the shooting, long after other others had run up the Knoll.
    - President grabbed his chest and fell over Jackie
    - A very interesting note here is that Jean Hills states the Presidential car was over to the left. Most Photos and Zapruder show the limo to be in the middle of three lanes. Except the Bronson Image above, the Bronson image shows the Limo also apparently in the left lane.


    External Source

    Moorman
    Mrs. Jean Hill and I were standing on the grass by the park on Elm Street between the underpass and the corner of Elm & Houston. I had a Polaroid Camera [sic] with me and was intending to take pictures of President Kennedy and the motorcade. As the motorcade started toward me I took two pictures. As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all. After the pictures I took were developed, the Picture [sic] of President Kennedy showed him slumped over. When the pictures were developed, they came out real light. These pictures have been turned over to Officers [sic] investigating this incident.


    -Two shots Jackie Jumped up
    -As the motorcade came towards me I took two pictures...Just where are those two pictures

    We will be presenting a detailed thread on Jean Hills evidence over the years later in the series.

    Jim's Zapruder Photo "doodles" All The Single Zapruder Frames

    As is now obvious there are many inconsistenices betwen the film and the witness first accounts. Some of this may be accounted for but however, on a holistic approach, it does not add up. We have already shown some inconsistenices in our Green man thread in Skunk Works. Zapruder film is full of them.
    What we ask of you when viewing these photos below is to examine them with an open mind and compare what has been marked with the witness evidence. The "face" on the collar could well be the true picture, as the witnesses above DO speak of JFK laying down on Jackie. See where things do not add up in the films, lines that don't match, shadow images and more. There is an mpi version of the film and it can also be found at. Some stills of "oddities" can be seen below.
    http://www.rejectz.com/zap1.qt


    Conclusion



    In conclusion we are asking people to examine this for themselves. Compare these first witness accounts with the Zapruder film and other photos and films taken of the day. Inconsistencies seen in the film and photos are corroborated by more than one witness. The Chisms and Mr Newman all state the president was standing up. Many of them state jackie jumped or stood up and more than one say that occured after the first shot and before the second. Many say the president slumped over to the left or even was covered by Jackie when she jumped up and more than one say this was after the first shot and before the second More than one mention guns in or around the presidential car. Individual points can be argued and witness torn apart but overall these statements remain preserved in their entirety as public record. as a bigger picture, these affidavits contradict the Zapruder film and other films and photographs of the day.

    As previously mentioned many of these witnesses didnt get called to the Warren Commsions to note of importance - the Chisms and Newmans, even though their account is of utmost importance to the assassination investigaion. But in one way because hey were not called to the Warren Commission the information we have is not tainted by latter memory interference. Indeed had they been called they may even have remembered some titbits they missed in the affidavits. As also previously mentioned there is many statements not here of people still unidentified in Elm Street that day.

    We will deal with secret sevice, police evidence and time comparisons of each individual evidence in a later thread of our series on the JFK assassination.

    First Witness Acounts - Affadavits
    Maynards Film Hoax Thread
    The Green man Thread
    Valhalls LBJ Conversation Thread
    Valhalls Conspiracy Master's Analysis of The Zapruder Film
    John Costella - The Great Zapruer Hoax
    Most of the Photos and Films
    JFK assassination Films and Photo Links
    JFk Assassinaion Theory Website - The Green man


    By Mayet and Jimstradamus


    [edit on 20-1-2006 by Mayet]

    Mod Edit: New External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.



    [edit on 20-1-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]


    profile copyright




    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread191783/pg1
    Last edited by Bernice Moore; 10-30-2009 at 11:37 PM.

  10. Default

    Very interesting is the WITNESS in the Mark Lane film (Holland?)
    who said something like this:

    LANE: How many shots did you hear?

    HOLLAND?: Three is what they told me, but I know I heard more.

    Bernice...do you have the exact quote I refer to?

    Jack

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