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Thread: Project - Locating the bullets/bullet holes in Dealey Plaza

  1. #1
    Myra Bronstein Guest

    Default Project - Locating the bullets/bullet holes in Dealey Plaza

    Please look at this map of Dealey Plaza and see if I accurately identified the locations of bullets and bullet holes.

    Click on the thumbnail to enlarge it.

    I used the map at this URL as a starting point and adapted it:
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3239/oriondea.gif

    That's step one. Ignore the sniper locations for now.

    Thanks.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2

    Default The bullet shell retrieval squad on Elm

    Quote Originally Posted by Myra Bronstein View Post
    Please look at this map of Dealey Plaza and see if I accurately identified the locations of bullets and bullet holes.

    Click on the thumbnail to enlarge it.

    I used the map at this URL as a starting point and adapted it:
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3239/oriondea.gif

    That's step one. Ignore the sniper locations for now.

    Thanks.
    Murray’s sequence captured the shell casing retrieval squad on Elm:

    http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com...album=41&pos=0

    Always useful to have the following list accompany it:

    The Left Veer

    From in front:

    1. Railway worker Roy Skelton, who viewed the assassination from the overpass:

    “then the car [the presidential limousine – PR] got in the right hand lane,” 19WCH496.

    2. Policeman J.W. Foster, again situated on the overpass:

    “immediately after President Kennedy was struck…the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb,” Warren Commission Document 897, pp.20-21.
    From side on, 3) to the right of the limousine, 4) to the left of it:

    3. Policeman James Chaney and other unnamed Dallas officers, as related by fellow motorcycle outrider, Marrion L. Baker:

    “I talked to Jim Chaney…during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get into the car…from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…I heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly he was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely,” 3WCH265.

    4. Jean Hill: “Murder Charge Lodged,” Dallas Times Herald, 23 November 1963, p.8:

    “The President passed directly in front of us on our side of the street,” Mrs. Hill said.
    From the rear:

    5. TSBD employee Mrs. Donald Baker (Virgie Rachley at time of shooting):

    Mrs. Baker told Warren Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler that the stray bullet struck the middle of the south-most lane on Elm Street just behind the presidential limousine, 7WCH510:

    [Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you saw (<p509 end; p.510 begins>) hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side near the side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?

    Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

    Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?
    Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.

    Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?

    Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.

    Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?

    Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

    Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?

    Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.]

    6. TSBD supervisor & board member Roy Truly, who watched the assassination from in front of the TSBD:

    “I saw the President’s car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area…” 3WCH220.

    Hugh Betzner, Jr.: Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. VI – pp.38-39
    Worth noting that no other site on Elm saw anything like the same activity in the immediate aftermath as this portion on the south curb: the execution's termination.

  3. #3

    Default

    Hi Myra :

    You may be interested in this article by Mike Griffith...

    FWIW there are many maps with areas, sites marked by researchers showing possible hits that relate to their particular theory on the where
    from......

    EXTRA BULLETS AND MISSED SHOTS IN DEALEY PLAZA
    Michael T. Griffith
    1996
    @All Rights Reserved
    Revised on 3/4/98
    With the discovery that the single-bullet theory (SBT) is very probably a physical impossibility, it is perhaps appropriate to review the evidence of extra bullets and misses in Dealey Plaza. Since it now seems clear that the SBT is impossible, we can be very confident that more than one gunman fired at President Kennedy. We can also be virtually certain that, contrary to the lone-gunman theory, more than three bullets were fired during the shooting. This being the case, researchers need to take another look at the accounts of extra bullets striking in Dealey Plaza during the shooting, and to reconsider the implications of the subsequent finding of additional bullets and weapons in the area.
    Extra Bullets and Weapons



    http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/griffith/Extra_Bullets_and_Missed_Shots.html


    Take care......

    B.....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #4
    Myra Bronstein Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Moore View Post
    Hi Myra :

    You may be interested in this article by Mike Griffith...

    FWIW there are many maps with areas, sites marked by researchers showing possible hits that relate to their particular theory on the where
    from......

    EXTRA BULLETS AND MISSED SHOTS IN DEALEY PLAZA
    Michael T. Griffith
    1996
    @All Rights Reserved
    Revised on 3/4/98
    With the discovery that the single-bullet theory (SBT) is very probably a physical impossibility, it is perhaps appropriate to review the evidence of extra bullets and misses in Dealey Plaza. Since it now seems clear that the SBT is impossible, we can be very confident that more than one gunman fired at President Kennedy. We can also be virtually certain that, contrary to the lone-gunman theory, more than three bullets were fired during the shooting. This being the case, researchers need to take another look at the accounts of extra bullets striking in Dealey Plaza during the shooting, and to reconsider the implications of the subsequent finding of additional bullets and weapons in the area.
    Extra Bullets and Weapons



    http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/griffith/Extra_Bullets_and_Missed_Shots.html


    Take care......

    B.....
    Thank you Bernice! This is exactly what I needed. One of the goals is to identify the location of each "lone gunman."

    I think it's almost certain that there was a lone gunman behind the knoll fence (head shot and more), in Dal-Tex (James Tague shot and more), and TSBD (back shot and more). I'm not so sure about the presence of a LG in or on the Criminal Courts building.

    Some sources (like the map I linked to) show a LG at Criminal Courts. The main reason I'm skeptical is that the Criminal Courts building is almost directly across from the knoll fence. Wouldn't that pose a risk to the gunmen, i.e., they may accidentally shoot each other?

  5. #5
    Myra Bronstein Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Moore View Post
    Hi Myra :

    You may be interested in this article by Mike Griffith...

    FWIW there are many maps with areas, sites marked by researchers showing possible hits that relate to their particular theory on the where
    from......

    EXTRA BULLETS AND MISSED SHOTS IN DEALEY PLAZA
    Michael T. Griffith
    1996
    @All Rights Reserved
    Revised on 3/4/98
    With the discovery that the single-bullet theory (SBT) is very probably a physical impossibility, it is perhaps appropriate to review the evidence of extra bullets and misses in Dealey Plaza. Since it now seems clear that the SBT is impossible, we can be very confident that more than one gunman fired at President Kennedy. We can also be virtually certain that, contrary to the lone-gunman theory, more than three bullets were fired during the shooting. This being the case, researchers need to take another look at the accounts of extra bullets striking in Dealey Plaza during the shooting, and to reconsider the implications of the subsequent finding of additional bullets and weapons in the area.
    Extra Bullets and Weapons



    http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/griffith/Extra_Bullets_and_Missed_Shots.html


    Take care......

    B.....
    Interesting Bernice. One of your attachments, "moore_hits" indicates a lone gunman at the county records building. This make a bit more sense to me than the criminal courts location since it's not 180 degrees opposite the knoll sniper site. That is an especially good attachment BTW. It has hard to find pix of collateral damage and those pesky non-magic extra bullets.

    Is it possible that there were four, not three, sniper locations? I guess I thought triangulation crossfire was SOP for such events.

  6. #6

    Default

    hi myra....

    memory here.....:vollkommenauf:imo there were no shots from the criminal courts building as there was a 15 ft high inner wall and...... then a 2 ft outer wall......i belive that info is within thompsons......s s in d

    the records building is a possible as well as the dal tex , there was also a report of several broken windows in the dt....?4th floor i believe.....and both the south and north sewer drain locations on either side of the over pass....as well as behind the fence area, there were approx 11 men that sam holland named as well as himself..most worked for the rail road......on the overpass, most remarked on a shot or shots......and also seeing smoke rise from behind the fence......as well as i believe 4 others on elm that also stated such...2 i think newspaper reporters.....i do have the stats and info within my collection..and possibly a shot from behind to the right of zapruder looking at the pedestal....possible BDGMN....?.where he first stated a shot did pass by him.....in an fbi report....sitzman saw nothing. heard nothing,said nothing, enough about that after tink got ahold of her for their interview...and after the BDMN had been found in Willis ? she suddenly recalled about the black couple on the bench....who broke two coke bottles, on the cement, later becoming one bottle....though none is seen in photos or films....only a red stain on the ground, which jean hill may have also seen,
    ....though sitzman she was ignored by the authourities....all....deliberately....it appears.......she was never contacted ..to give a statement to the w/c as most of the rr men were not either.....only sam holland, and only because he was so vocal and did and continued to forever give them a hard time for trying to and changing some of his testimony.....and as i well know, hearing the groan now.....a possible upward shot from the sewer drain on elm on the street at the time.....re Wilson's work.....keeping also in mind the trajectory of the head shot was on an upward angle......as it has been said within the med studies...the shooter would have had to have been lying on elm street.....that is the why in the sbt w/c drawings jfk's head is bent down on such a downward angle to make that possible but from the frames within the crappy zappy , nix....and muchmore films, i believe also, his head does not appear so....nor does a possible trajectory from the tsbd....

    as lee bowers did state , in what he did give us, but apparently it may appear there was further info he did not give to the authouritys....that just as the limo disappeared from his view behind the collonade north on elm ......shots rang out......and at that instant he noted some commotion 6H288.....from behind the fence area....

    price was on top of the terminal annex bldg .on the roof you can see him in mark lanes video......rush to judgement.......the post office....south side.....and did relate info of seeing a young man,.......longish dark hair and something, perhaps a head piece ??in his hand..... run from behind the fence towards a train passenger car on the railway siding..and disappeared in the direction of the side street of the tsbd..he did not report any shots from the area of his building......

    aside from the bullet that was reported that hit the sewer apron on elm...the buddy walther....bullet...fbi agent barrett i believe his name was who picked it up..buddy who ended up with it....dorothy his wife also saw it........gave the bullet to his son duke..for show and tell at school....and that was the last that was heard of it....the mark oakes tapes have much of the sewer apron bullet info ....there was mr & mrs hartman who saw two like ruts in the grass opposite the steps area, a dpd told them they were bullet hits that missed...that had burrowed in the ground.......she said they looked something like little mole tunnels, ....then there was the sidewalk hit, on the north side......

    so if one begins to add up it comes out something like 10 or so....perhaps more......and keeping in mind the flurry of shots mentioned into the limo by the ss within, and that first reports stated the shots sounded as though they were fired from an automatic.....it appears there were many more possibles than three......another area that was also mentioned was the west end 6th floor window of the tsbd......which after being looked from was an area that gave a much clearer view and trajectory than the so called oswald window.....

    there was also a bullet shell found some time later near or in the bushes near the tsbd as well as on the roof some years later on the roof of the county courts i believe ?when they were working on an a/c unit......

    right now i have a bad neck that affects the rest of my right side, it has improved..on the mend...so one finger here...:argh:...but i shall get into my collections for you and post documented info if wanted.....below on a quick look is grodens possibleshot areas.....aside also from the rademacher shells found near the pedestal there was also another found some years later by a couple who were visiting....near the fence....then again who knows some may have been salted......??


    ROBERT GRODEN, his HSCA-documented comments about the panels report, 1979"

    http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...enComments.pdf




    ATTACHMENT 3: SUSPECTED FIRING POINTS IN THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY, AS THEY RELATE TO THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE

    There are nearly 2 dozen suspected firing points in Dealey Plaza that have been raised by Warren report critics through the years. Of these, several are worthy of close inspection for they may be candidates of probable sources of shots within the plaza. Some of the 2 dozen:

    1. The TSBD easternmost sixth floor window facing south (the "Oswald" window).
    2. The TSBD roof.
    3. The TSBD seventh floor.
    4. The TSBD fourth floor, third pair from the left (west) end.
    5. The TSBD westernmost pair of sixth floor windows facing south.
    6. The Dal-Tex building second floor.
    7. The Dal-Tex building third floor.
    8. The Dal-Tex building third floor. (any of the top three).
    9. Dal-Tex roof.
    10. The county records building roof.
    11. The county records building second floor.
    12. The stockade fence on top of the "grassy knoll".
    13. The cement retaining wall in front of the stockade fence.
    14. In front of the cement structure on the knoll at the end of the stockade fence (northeastern end).
    15. The railroad overpass.
    16. A storm drain at the north curb of Elm Street.
    17. The "umbrella man".
    18. The "south knoll" (the grassy knoll on the south side of the plaza on Commerce Street).



    for now........b

    PS the photo marked mark lane & Holland is from the area that they saw the smoke drift out from.....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bernice Moore; 09-06-2009 at 04:11 AM.

  7. #7

    Default

    a few more photos myra.........b
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  8. #8
    Myra Bronstein Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Rigby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Myra Bronstein View Post
    Please look at this map of Dealey Plaza and see if I accurately identified the locations of bullets and bullet holes.

    Click on the thumbnail to enlarge it.

    I used the map at this URL as a starting point and adapted it:
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3239/oriondea.gif

    That's step one. Ignore the sniper locations for now.

    Thanks.
    Murray’s sequence captured the shell casing retrieval squad on Elm:

    http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com...album=41&pos=0

    ...
    Thanks Paul, that's very helpful.

    Do I have the full and correct photo sequence here that James Murray took of the people at the manhole cover studying the ground?

  9. #9
    Myra Bronstein Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Rigby View Post
    ...
    5. TSBD employee Mrs. Donald Baker (Virgie Rachley at time of shooting):

    Mrs. Baker told Warren Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler that the stray bullet struck the middle of the south-most lane on Elm Street just behind the presidential limousine, 7WCH510:

    [Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you saw (<p509 end; p.510 begins>) hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side near the side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?

    Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

    Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?
    Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.

    Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?

    Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.

    Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?

    Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

    Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?

    Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.]

    6. TSBD supervisor & board member Roy Truly, who watched the assassination from in front of the TSBD:

    “I saw the President’s car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area…” 3WCH220.

    Hugh Betzner, Jr.: Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. VI – pp.38-39
    Worth noting that no other site on Elm saw anything like the same activity in the immediate aftermath as this portion on the south curb: the execution's termination.[/QUOTE]

    So, Paul, according to this account a bullet struck the pavement on Elm street? Not the curb, grass, etc--the street itself. Right?

  10. #10
    Myra Bronstein Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Myra Bronstein View Post
    ...
    So, Paul, according to this account a bullet struck the pavement on Elm street? Not the curb, grass, etc--the street itself. Right?
    Don Roberdeau's map shows a "street patch." I wonder if this is where the bullet struck on Elm. See attached segment of Don's map which I altered to emphasize the "street patch" label.

    What do you think?
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