21-03-2013, 12:48 AM
Thanking Jan for the reminder... I would like to examine CD's post strictly in the context of Scott's work.
So let's go to the link CD posted in post #1 - the basis for his questions...
Scott writes:
In Deep Politics and the Death of JFK, I called these "Phase-One" reports, part of a two-fold process. Phase One put forward the phantom of an international plot, linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries together. This phantom was used to invoke the danger of a possible nuclear confrontation, which induced Chief Justice Earl Warren and other political notables to accept Phase Two, the equally false (but less dangerous) hypothesis that Oswald killed the President all by himself. …. [T]he Phase-One story… was first promoted and then defused by the CIA. Michael Beschloss has revealed that, at 9:20 AM on the morning of November 23, CIA Director John McCone briefed the new President. In Beschloss' words: "The CIA had information on foreign connections to the alleged assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, which suggested to LBJ that Kennedy may have been murdered by an international conspiracy."[SUP][SUP]28[/SUP][/SUP]
After reading this and linking to it, CD wrote:
What Scott himself writes:
"As noted earlier, the DFS played a central role, along with the CIA, in the
management of conspiratorial stories about Oswald in Mexico, including the false
Oswald-Soviet intercept. The key to this procedure, as I argued in Deep
Politics, was a two-fold process. Phase One put forward the phantom of an
international plot, linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries
together. This phantom was used to invoke the danger of a possible nuclear
confrontation, w[B]hich induced Chief Justice Earl Warren and other political
notables to accept Phase Two[/B], the equally false (but less dangerous) hypothesis
that Oswald killed the President all by himself"
So while CD interprets Scott as " "the" Soviets and the Cubans had conspired successfully to kill the president" what Scott actually writes is the attempt "linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries together"
A subtle distinction yet a serious one... CD wants us to believe Phase 1 was about blaming the Soviets/Cubans when in reality it was focused on LINKING OSWALD to these countries... and letting imagination and events run wild from there.
Harriman, within a day, tells LBJ that the Soviets had nothing to do with it....
"THE" call from the Sit Room to AF-1 conveys the same message...
Hoover has been "Phase 1"'d since info came in from Mexico City trying to place Oswald in the Cuban Embassy calling the Russian embassy... and as Scott writes, the DFS was hand in hand with the CIA on this....
This statement stretches the bounds of credibility... does CD honestly believe that LBJ and Warren, on Nov 29th, were already aware of the WCR conclusions when Hoover was telling LBJ there were still problems in Mexico City? When Warren himself tells us that the RUMORS (remember my statement about imagination and events running wild) were enough for him to accept LBJ's pressure (as if he had a choice) and help avoid a nuclear MISTAKE...
the writing on the wall was that the USA simply could not say there were connections to the Cubans or Soviets without the sayso of this Commission... which in turn was getting their info from the FBI's report... which told them that Oswald acted alone.
When the Commission got down to it, it became extremely obvious that Phase 1 nor Phase 2 were the answer... but that the "fingerprints of intelligence were all over him" and that Phase 2 was the lesser of two evils for everyone on the planet.
http://www.vectorsite.net/twjfk_21.html
LBJ targeted Chief Justice Warren to lead the investigation, talking to
Warren about the matter at the White House on 29 November 1963, with LBJ giving
Warren the "Johnson treatment", a peculiar but effective mix of energetic
persuasion, folksy charm, and bullying. Warren wrote later:
BEGIN QUOTE:
[LBJ] said he was concerned about the wild stories and rumors that were
arousing ... the world. He said that because Oswald had been murdered, there
could be no trial ... and that unless the facts were explored objectively and
conclusions reached that would be respected by the public, it would always
remain an open wound with ominous potential. He added that several congressional
committees and Texas local and state authorities were contemplating public
investigations with television coverage which would compete with each other for
public attention, and in the end leave the people more bewildered and emotional
than at present.
He said he was satisfied that if he appointed a bipartisan Presidential
Commission to investigate the facts impartially and report them to a troubled
nation that the people would accept its findings. He told me that he had made up
his mind as to the other members ... I then told the President my reasons for
not being available for the chairmanship. He replied, "You were a soldier in
World War I, but there was nothing you could do in that uniform comparable to
what you can do for your country in this hour of trouble."
He then told me how serious were the rumors floating around the world. The
gravity of the situation was such that it might lead us into war, he said, and,
if so, it might be a nuclear war. He went on to tell me that he had just talked
to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, who had advised him that the first nuclear
strike against us might cause the loss of forty million people.
I then said, "Mr. President, if the situation is that serious, my personal
views do not count. I will do it." He thanked me, and I left the White House.
END QUOTE
Sorry to say but I see nothing here that suggests PHASE 2. If anything it was classic LBJ getting what he wanted any way he could.
Russell to LBJ: "I just can't serve on that Commission... with Chief Justice Warren... I don't like that man..."
LBJ to Russell on LBJ's insisting Russell serve with Warren "Dick... it has already been announced...we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Kruschev and Castro did this and did that and check us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour"
Hoover, on the other hand WAS promoting Phase 1 with outright lies to RFK:
PDScott:
At 4:00 PM on the afternoon of November 22, Ho[B]over told Bobby Kennedy that Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions, but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for[/B]."[26] (There is nothing in FBI files on Oswald, as released to the public, to suggest either that Oswald had visited Cuba, or that he had been interrogated about such visits by the FBI.)
Here is where I have the most difficulty with this "hypothesis".... The question CD starts with - which was never uttered by anyone at any time, and certainly not by Mr Scott - allows him to create a hypothetical "answer"....
It seems to me that CD forgets that Scott himself warns that BOTH Phase 1 and 2 were lies....
THAT in turn begs the question... which lie gets whoever was "touting" it what they wanted?
"Phase 1 touts" refers to specific people other than LBJ... we KNOW LBJ needed his Commission to rubberstamp the FBI report... yet at this early date Hoover was still convinced that something might be up in Mexico City
Hoover is adamant about NOT concluding that it was Oswald alone in his Dec 12 letter.. Phase 1.... yet the conclusion of the FBI report is pure Phase 2.
Does McCone know that Phase 1 is bullsh!t on Nov 23rd when he briefs LBJ yet promotes it anyway? Maybe, yet from the info he has he either 1) knows his boys are involved in both JFK and attempts on Castro and needs to protect it or 2) does not know and only knows what the cables tell him... Phase 1.
The fear of revealing Castro assassination attempts ONGOING well after RFK/JFK order them stopped is the motivation for McCone to tout Phase 1....
So what does McCone have to say about the transition to Phase 2? I doubt highly that it included the question, "Are we going to let those Commie murderers off the hook?" but if CD has evidence to support such a conclusion...POST IT.
Within the context of Scott's work.. I firmly believe I have illustrated that CD created a nice, fictional scene that barely touches upon what Scott actually writes to offer a hypothetical scenario whereby he can ask a question that doesn't even deserve to be considered... WITHOUT first naming who he thinks Scott is talking about when he writes "other political notables" or Scott's understanding within this context of "the inevitable, outrage-driven question" that no one has EVER been credited with saying or even thinking.
One should not set the ground rules or framework for a discussion and immediately break those rules when offering a hypothesis... and not accept a request to explain why/who/what/where/when.... which my first post on this thread started out asking... after CD YET AGAIN has to reword and reask the question since not a single person GOT it... even CD gets tired of trying to explain himself... and this post of his was BEFORE I had made a single comment.
DJ: Who was aware of this Phase 1 story?
CD Wrote:Peter Dale Scott's masterful multi-phase JFK assassination cover-up hypothesis is both a distillation of previous research (his own and that of others) and a greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts template for post-Dallas deep state conspiracies and their aftermaths.
http://japanfocus.org/-Peter_Dale-Scott/3835
Scott's Phase I describes the production of wholly contrived evidence suggesting that "the" Soviets and the Cubans had conspired successfully to kill the president. Release of this information to the public, it was argued by LBJ and others, would result in irresistible calls for retaliation in the form of a war that, in the now-infamous phrase, "would cost 40 million American lives."
LBJ claimed that this very argument was enough to get Earl Warren to head the commission that would endorse Phase II of the cover-up: the admittedly contrived fallback position that Oswald acted alone.
So how did LBJ and other Phase I touts respond to the inevitable, outrage-driven question, "Are we going to let those Commie murderers off the hook?"
I think that the most likely response was something along these lines:
-- Powerful individuals within the Soviet and Cuban governments were responsible, but the assassination was not a sanctioned act of those governments. We'll take out the guilty parties in good time -- without spilling the blood of innocents in their tens of millions.
How else might movement from Phase I to Phase II have been facilitated peacefully?
So let's go to the link CD posted in post #1 - the basis for his questions...
Scott writes:
In Deep Politics and the Death of JFK, I called these "Phase-One" reports, part of a two-fold process. Phase One put forward the phantom of an international plot, linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries together. This phantom was used to invoke the danger of a possible nuclear confrontation, which induced Chief Justice Earl Warren and other political notables to accept Phase Two, the equally false (but less dangerous) hypothesis that Oswald killed the President all by himself. …. [T]he Phase-One story… was first promoted and then defused by the CIA. Michael Beschloss has revealed that, at 9:20 AM on the morning of November 23, CIA Director John McCone briefed the new President. In Beschloss' words: "The CIA had information on foreign connections to the alleged assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, which suggested to LBJ that Kennedy may have been murdered by an international conspiracy."[SUP][SUP]28[/SUP][/SUP]
After reading this and linking to it, CD wrote:
CD Wrote:Scott's Phase I describes the production of wholly contrived evidence suggesting that "the" Soviets and the Cubans had conspired successfully to kill the president. Release of this information to the public, it was argued by LBJ and others, would result in irresistible calls for retaliation in the form of a war that, in the now-infamous phrase, "would cost 40 million American lives."
What Scott himself writes:
"As noted earlier, the DFS played a central role, along with the CIA, in the
management of conspiratorial stories about Oswald in Mexico, including the false
Oswald-Soviet intercept. The key to this procedure, as I argued in Deep
Politics, was a two-fold process. Phase One put forward the phantom of an
international plot, linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries
together. This phantom was used to invoke the danger of a possible nuclear
confrontation, w[B]hich induced Chief Justice Earl Warren and other political
notables to accept Phase Two[/B], the equally false (but less dangerous) hypothesis
that Oswald killed the President all by himself"
So while CD interprets Scott as " "the" Soviets and the Cubans had conspired successfully to kill the president" what Scott actually writes is the attempt "linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries together"
A subtle distinction yet a serious one... CD wants us to believe Phase 1 was about blaming the Soviets/Cubans when in reality it was focused on LINKING OSWALD to these countries... and letting imagination and events run wild from there.
Harriman, within a day, tells LBJ that the Soviets had nothing to do with it....
"THE" call from the Sit Room to AF-1 conveys the same message...
Hoover has been "Phase 1"'d since info came in from Mexico City trying to place Oswald in the Cuban Embassy calling the Russian embassy... and as Scott writes, the DFS was hand in hand with the CIA on this....
CD Wrote:LBJ claimed that this very argument was enough to get Earl Warren to head the commission that would endorse Phase II of the cover-up: the admittedly contrived fallback position that Oswald acted alone.
This statement stretches the bounds of credibility... does CD honestly believe that LBJ and Warren, on Nov 29th, were already aware of the WCR conclusions when Hoover was telling LBJ there were still problems in Mexico City? When Warren himself tells us that the RUMORS (remember my statement about imagination and events running wild) were enough for him to accept LBJ's pressure (as if he had a choice) and help avoid a nuclear MISTAKE...
the writing on the wall was that the USA simply could not say there were connections to the Cubans or Soviets without the sayso of this Commission... which in turn was getting their info from the FBI's report... which told them that Oswald acted alone.
When the Commission got down to it, it became extremely obvious that Phase 1 nor Phase 2 were the answer... but that the "fingerprints of intelligence were all over him" and that Phase 2 was the lesser of two evils for everyone on the planet.
http://www.vectorsite.net/twjfk_21.html
LBJ targeted Chief Justice Warren to lead the investigation, talking to
Warren about the matter at the White House on 29 November 1963, with LBJ giving
Warren the "Johnson treatment", a peculiar but effective mix of energetic
persuasion, folksy charm, and bullying. Warren wrote later:
BEGIN QUOTE:
[LBJ] said he was concerned about the wild stories and rumors that were
arousing ... the world. He said that because Oswald had been murdered, there
could be no trial ... and that unless the facts were explored objectively and
conclusions reached that would be respected by the public, it would always
remain an open wound with ominous potential. He added that several congressional
committees and Texas local and state authorities were contemplating public
investigations with television coverage which would compete with each other for
public attention, and in the end leave the people more bewildered and emotional
than at present.
He said he was satisfied that if he appointed a bipartisan Presidential
Commission to investigate the facts impartially and report them to a troubled
nation that the people would accept its findings. He told me that he had made up
his mind as to the other members ... I then told the President my reasons for
not being available for the chairmanship. He replied, "You were a soldier in
World War I, but there was nothing you could do in that uniform comparable to
what you can do for your country in this hour of trouble."
He then told me how serious were the rumors floating around the world. The
gravity of the situation was such that it might lead us into war, he said, and,
if so, it might be a nuclear war. He went on to tell me that he had just talked
to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, who had advised him that the first nuclear
strike against us might cause the loss of forty million people.
I then said, "Mr. President, if the situation is that serious, my personal
views do not count. I will do it." He thanked me, and I left the White House.
END QUOTE
Sorry to say but I see nothing here that suggests PHASE 2. If anything it was classic LBJ getting what he wanted any way he could.
Russell to LBJ: "I just can't serve on that Commission... with Chief Justice Warren... I don't like that man..."
LBJ to Russell on LBJ's insisting Russell serve with Warren "Dick... it has already been announced...we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Kruschev and Castro did this and did that and check us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour"
Hoover, on the other hand WAS promoting Phase 1 with outright lies to RFK:
PDScott:
At 4:00 PM on the afternoon of November 22, Ho[B]over told Bobby Kennedy that Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions, but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for[/B]."[26] (There is nothing in FBI files on Oswald, as released to the public, to suggest either that Oswald had visited Cuba, or that he had been interrogated about such visits by the FBI.)
CD Wrote:So how did LBJ and other Phase I touts respond to the inevitable, outrage-driven question, "Are we going to let those Commie murderers off the hook?"
I think that the most likely response was something along these lines:
-- Powerful individuals within the Soviet and Cuban governments were responsible, but the assassination was not a sanctioned act of those governments. We'll take out the guilty parties in good time -- without spilling the blood of innocents in their tens of millions.
Here is where I have the most difficulty with this "hypothesis".... The question CD starts with - which was never uttered by anyone at any time, and certainly not by Mr Scott - allows him to create a hypothetical "answer"....
It seems to me that CD forgets that Scott himself warns that BOTH Phase 1 and 2 were lies....
THAT in turn begs the question... which lie gets whoever was "touting" it what they wanted?
"Phase 1 touts" refers to specific people other than LBJ... we KNOW LBJ needed his Commission to rubberstamp the FBI report... yet at this early date Hoover was still convinced that something might be up in Mexico City
Hoover is adamant about NOT concluding that it was Oswald alone in his Dec 12 letter.. Phase 1.... yet the conclusion of the FBI report is pure Phase 2.
Does McCone know that Phase 1 is bullsh!t on Nov 23rd when he briefs LBJ yet promotes it anyway? Maybe, yet from the info he has he either 1) knows his boys are involved in both JFK and attempts on Castro and needs to protect it or 2) does not know and only knows what the cables tell him... Phase 1.
The fear of revealing Castro assassination attempts ONGOING well after RFK/JFK order them stopped is the motivation for McCone to tout Phase 1....
So what does McCone have to say about the transition to Phase 2? I doubt highly that it included the question, "Are we going to let those Commie murderers off the hook?" but if CD has evidence to support such a conclusion...POST IT.
Within the context of Scott's work.. I firmly believe I have illustrated that CD created a nice, fictional scene that barely touches upon what Scott actually writes to offer a hypothetical scenario whereby he can ask a question that doesn't even deserve to be considered... WITHOUT first naming who he thinks Scott is talking about when he writes "other political notables" or Scott's understanding within this context of "the inevitable, outrage-driven question" that no one has EVER been credited with saying or even thinking.
One should not set the ground rules or framework for a discussion and immediately break those rules when offering a hypothesis... and not accept a request to explain why/who/what/where/when.... which my first post on this thread started out asking... after CD YET AGAIN has to reword and reask the question since not a single person GOT it... even CD gets tired of trying to explain himself... and this post of his was BEFORE I had made a single comment.
CD Wrote:I'll try to ask it one moretime:
How were the most powerfulpeople in and around government who, innocent of any involvement in the conspiracy,were told and accepted as being truewhat today we call the Phase I story, mollified when they asked (and Ibelieve many of them did), "If we go along with this cover-up of Cuban andSoviet complicity for the greater good, how and when will the guilty Cuban andSoviet parties be punished?"
My hope is that I've finally found the words and constructions requiredto make my point.
Because I'm done trying.
DJ: Who was aware of this Phase 1 story?
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
