15-03-2010, 07:27 PM
(This post was last modified: 15-03-2010, 07:31 PM by Ruben Mundaca.)
[quote=David Guyatt]That an interesting slant on history Ruben. By which I mean the idea that the Spanish Conquistadors and the Europe-nization of Latin America was ultimately beneficial.
-But of course it was...!!!. Specially the Spanish conquest..!!.. I can't say the same about English, French or Portugese colonization. English and French (with their superiority complex) face colonization as an extermination of inigenous people, and his sustitution with negro slaves, more rough and resistant to diseases. Portugese face colonization as slavery of indigenous people.
But spanish conquest was different, thanks to the Catholic Church. Since the early times of Bishop Las Casas and the priest called Motolinia, Spanish emperor took american indigenous under his protection, improving and enforcing tough laws against his slavery and abuse. The "Encomienda" institution allow spanish to take some advantage of the work of indians, but with the responsability to take care of them too, and make them "good Cristians".
The most usual way was to take taxes from their production (never more than 50%) This may sound very high, but former Inca government took from them as high as 80%. Anyway, the impact was not so negative, because with the introduction of new ways of production allow indigenous to boost the amount of their production (the use of Plows and ox in agriculture, manual devices for spun flax and fabrics, metal tools, the use of horses, mules and cart for transportation, the improvement of roads, etc.) and the introduction of medicines, new animals and crops, as sheeps, cows, horses, pigs, chikens, sugar cane, etc.
So, instead giving 60% to 80% of 10 tonnes production to the Inca, they where giving 50% of a 100 tonnes. to the spanish "encomendero"
Read the history better. Las Casas denounce cruealty and killings to the Spanish Emperor, but not even that is completly true (Motolinia, a very respected priest who live between indians, say Las Casas is lying. There was killings performed by one crazy conqueror who end his life in jail by order of the emperor. But Cortez take care in not to treat them with abuse, because he was about to loose evrything because the denounce of abuses done by his enemys to the emperor. So, any conqueror take care not to be denounced of cruealty or abuses, because they where in danger to lose his conquest.
But spanish fall in the same stupidity than all white people of his time: they begin to use black africans as slaves instead (They thougt negros doesen't have a soul to save). The real slaves where the negros, not the indians.
In comparison, the anglos exterminate indians, the french commit atrocitys against the negros (Napoleon ordered the killing of 100.000 negro rebels in Haiti), the portugese where the most enthusiastic in slavery (last american colony to forbid slavery).
Is better to read more history and watch less hollywood pictures.
However, in regard to your proposition, the problem I see with it is that we don't know how the indigenous peoples might have turned out sans the European intervention (and their noxious baggage). They may have become highly civilized in their own right. We just don't know - and we certainly can't turn the clock backwards to find out.
Ho, whe dont know how the dinosaurs have developed if a stone from the sky didn't extinct them, but I am not going to cry for them. Not for the conquest of such killer, brutal and abusive people, either.
By that time, many countries has the technology to be the conquerors, including arabs and chinese. In any case, the indigenous american people where doomed.
-But of course it was...!!!. Specially the Spanish conquest..!!.. I can't say the same about English, French or Portugese colonization. English and French (with their superiority complex) face colonization as an extermination of inigenous people, and his sustitution with negro slaves, more rough and resistant to diseases. Portugese face colonization as slavery of indigenous people.
But spanish conquest was different, thanks to the Catholic Church. Since the early times of Bishop Las Casas and the priest called Motolinia, Spanish emperor took american indigenous under his protection, improving and enforcing tough laws against his slavery and abuse. The "Encomienda" institution allow spanish to take some advantage of the work of indians, but with the responsability to take care of them too, and make them "good Cristians".
The most usual way was to take taxes from their production (never more than 50%) This may sound very high, but former Inca government took from them as high as 80%. Anyway, the impact was not so negative, because with the introduction of new ways of production allow indigenous to boost the amount of their production (the use of Plows and ox in agriculture, manual devices for spun flax and fabrics, metal tools, the use of horses, mules and cart for transportation, the improvement of roads, etc.) and the introduction of medicines, new animals and crops, as sheeps, cows, horses, pigs, chikens, sugar cane, etc.
So, instead giving 60% to 80% of 10 tonnes production to the Inca, they where giving 50% of a 100 tonnes. to the spanish "encomendero"
Read the history better. Las Casas denounce cruealty and killings to the Spanish Emperor, but not even that is completly true (Motolinia, a very respected priest who live between indians, say Las Casas is lying. There was killings performed by one crazy conqueror who end his life in jail by order of the emperor. But Cortez take care in not to treat them with abuse, because he was about to loose evrything because the denounce of abuses done by his enemys to the emperor. So, any conqueror take care not to be denounced of cruealty or abuses, because they where in danger to lose his conquest.
But spanish fall in the same stupidity than all white people of his time: they begin to use black africans as slaves instead (They thougt negros doesen't have a soul to save). The real slaves where the negros, not the indians.
In comparison, the anglos exterminate indians, the french commit atrocitys against the negros (Napoleon ordered the killing of 100.000 negro rebels in Haiti), the portugese where the most enthusiastic in slavery (last american colony to forbid slavery).
Is better to read more history and watch less hollywood pictures.
However, in regard to your proposition, the problem I see with it is that we don't know how the indigenous peoples might have turned out sans the European intervention (and their noxious baggage). They may have become highly civilized in their own right. We just don't know - and we certainly can't turn the clock backwards to find out.
Ho, whe dont know how the dinosaurs have developed if a stone from the sky didn't extinct them, but I am not going to cry for them. Not for the conquest of such killer, brutal and abusive people, either.
By that time, many countries has the technology to be the conquerors, including arabs and chinese. In any case, the indigenous american people where doomed.