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+--- Thread: David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment (/thread-13863.html)
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - David Josephs - 08-04-2015
Quote:Hi Dave
Thanks for posting this. I'm embarrassed to say this is the first time I've read this part of Weitzman's testimony.
Wasn't it Martin or Hargis, the two motorcycle cops at the left rear of the limo, who claimed the spray hit him so hard, it felt like a piece of concrete had hit him? I'm starting to wonder if he wasn't struck by the Harper Fragment.
At least your big enough to admit it, read it and move on... it amazes me as well the number of tidbits I come across that I had not come across before - every day it seems.
Aint the process of learning and sharing great!
After you mentioned that a few others things came to mind.
First, if Hargis was hit with Harper he'd have known it... he described it more of a cloud of blood and debris, like pellets I think he says...
What I do remember (thankx to a PM from vince P) is Boring at the ARRB saying that a large piece of bone was found in the Queen Mary and then recanting.
Is it possible this WAS Harper and it was Boring and the SS who repositioned Harper to be found the next day?
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/doc1.txt
"After independently recalling that they had searched the cars, Mr. Bo=
ring said that he (Boring) had discovered a piece of skull bone with brai=
n attached14 in the rear of the follow-up car (the black Cadillac convert=
ible called the "Queen Mary"), in the footwell just in front of the back =
seat bench. He said during follow-up questioning that the dimensions of t=
his skull bone-brain fragment were approximately 1" X 2". He said that he=
never picked it up or touched it himself, but that he simply pointed it =
out to Mr. Paterni (Mr. Paterni was Deputy Chief of the Secret Service)15=
=2E He said he did not write a report about this, and he did not know whe=
ther Mr. Paterni had written a report or not."16 For his part, Sam Kinney=
told me: " he found the piece of the back of JFK's head lying in the rea=
r seat of the bloody limousine, exactly were Clint Hill told the Warren C=
ommission he saw the "right rear" piece at (2H141; fellow agents Roy Kel=
lerman [2H85] and Jerry Behn[Sibert & O'Neill interview, 11/27/63] confir=
m this fact)! Sam told me it was "clean as a pin" and that it resembled a=
"flowerpot" or "clay pot" piece. Kinney added: "It was a big piece-half =
his head was gone." When I pressed him on this point and asked him if he =
was sure of the skull piece's orientation, he said, " I don't know what e=
lse it could have been but the back of his head." Realizing the obvious s=
ignificance of this find (made several hours BEFORE the "official" limous=
ine inspection instigated by ASAIC FLOYD BORING), Kinney put in a phone p=
atch to Admiral George Burkley (unfortunately, like many other events, th=
is radio traffic no longer exists on the heavily edited Air Force One rad=
io tapes that are available at the present time [I wonder why?]). Kinney =
had the piece in his suit pocket during his talk with Burkley and during =
the flight back to Washington. Upon landing at Andrew Air Force Base, Bur=
kley got a hold of the skull piece Kinney had."17
What makes Boring's recollections of the limo inspection particularly tro=
ublesome is the fact that he "made very clear during the [ARRB] interview=
that this fragment was in the rear of the follow-up car, not in the rear=
seat of the presidential limousine.Initially, ARRB staff members Zimmerm=
an and Horne had misunderstood Mr. Boring to mean that the bone-brain fra=
gment was in the rear seat of the President's limousine, and Mr. Boring t=
ook specific pains to correct our misunderstanding during follow-on discu=
ssion of this matter." However, Boring called Horne the next day to place=
a correction (and, thus, a retraction) on the record: he now felt that t=
he skull bone-and-brain fragment he saw "must have been in the back seat =
of the President's limousine, and not the follow-up car. He said that his=
stroke may perhaps have had something to do with his error." This may al=
so explain why Boring now has NO recollection of finding any bullet fragm=
ents at all in the limousine (only the skull fragment), and also may expl=
ain why he could not remember, one way or the other, the condition of the=
limousine's windshield and chrome strip.18
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Jim Hargrove - 08-04-2015
Bob Mady Wrote:There should be no doubt that the HARPER fragment is from the rear of President KENNEDYS head, principally from the occipital area, it had been determined independently from the WC to have come from this area and this is before any information concerning the Presidents wounds was available.
That's what I mean about everything changing after the initial observations! Here's an image from Wikipedia showing how far back and low the occiput is in the human skull:
And here is the Dox drawing from the HSCA (prominently featured on John McAdams' website):
Although the apologists go to great lengths to call the above entrance area occipital-something-or-other, it does not appear to me to be the same area at all, even though Dr. Mantik describes the Harper fragment as from the upper occipital. The redefined occipital area, and the missing skull that we are now to believe came from just above it, seems to make it appear that this type of damage could be caused by a bullet originating at the Book Depository. Golly, we should all STOP WORRYING and SUPPORT OUR GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS!!!
Quote:Here is were it gets interesting, how was this fragment produced from a missile moving thru bone?
A proposed frontal shot might have struck KENNEDY in the temple (no proof of this at all) would have exited the rear leaving a hole, probably producing small shards of bone.
This fragment was about 3 inches long. What produced this?
Think about a shot striking KENNEDY not from the front but from the side, it hit KENNEDY to the rear of his right ear, transited thru the skull and exited on the other side, it popped off the chunk of bone in the back of KENNEDYS head.
Now go watch the Zapruder film, the movement is not really back and to the left, it is more to the left and back. The shot came more from the side not the front.
No argument from me, though obviously legions of government investigators and their fans will disagree.
Quote:Remember when watching the impact on KENNEDY that he is wearing a body brace which prevents him from toppling sideways.
Makes sense, but I really don't know much about the medical evidence. Just trying to make a very simple point about the changing definition of a wound and skull fragment involving the occiput, and how the perception of this area has seemingly been altered by a number of people over time.
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Jim DiEugenio - 09-04-2015
Thanks Jim.
This is the point of the article. And why I think Dave wrote it.
To accumulate the physical evidence needed to now complement the eyewitnesses so as to make it pretty much a near certainty.
And if it is, then we know a hot came from the front.
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Bob Mady - 09-04-2015
Jim Hargrove Wrote:The wiki image is deceiving.Bob Mady Wrote:There should be no doubt that the HARPER fragment is from the rear of President KENNEDYS head, principally from the occipital area, it had been determined independently from the WC to have come from this area and this is before any information concerning the Presidents wounds was available.
That's what I mean about everything changing after the initial observations! Here's an image from Wikipedia showing how far back and low the occiput is in the human skull:
And here is the Dox drawing from the HSCA (prominently featured on John McAdams' website):
Although the apologists go to great lengths to call the above entrance area occipital-something-or-other, it does not appear to me to be the same area at all, even though Dr. Mantik describes the Harper fragment as from the upper occipital. The redefined occipital area, and the missing skull that we are now to believe came from just above it, seems to make it appear that this type of damage could be caused by a bullet originating at the Book Depository. Golly, we should all STOP WORRYING and SUPPORT OUR GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS!!!
Quote:Here is were it gets interesting, how was this fragment produced from a missile moving thru bone?
A proposed frontal shot might have struck KENNEDY in the temple (no proof of this at all) would have exited the rear leaving a hole, probably producing small shards of bone.
This fragment was about 3 inches long. What produced this?
Think about a shot striking KENNEDY not from the front but from the side, it hit KENNEDY to the rear of his right ear, transited thru the skull and exited on the other side, it popped off the chunk of bone in the back of KENNEDYS head.
Now go watch the Zapruder film, the movement is not really back and to the left, it is more to the left and back. The shot came more from the side not the front.
No argument from me, though obviously legions of government investigators and their fans will disagree.
Quote:Remember when watching the impact on KENNEDY that he is wearing a body brace which prevents him from toppling sideways.
Makes sense, but I really don't know much about the medical evidence. Just trying to make a very simple point about the changing definition of a wound and skull fragment involving the occiput, and how the perception of this area has seemingly been altered by a number of people over time.
The occipital area is not just as illustrated, recommend reviewing other images to see.
What does it matter what the government tools and pundits claim should be seen, what can you see?
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - David Josephs - 09-04-2015
Bob is right - The occipital rises much higher than that images shows
The real point though remains the same... the following xrays are mutually exclusive.
The anterior shows no bone at the right rear of the skull while the Lateral shows nothing but bone back there.
Mantik's white patch and black area were Ebersole's contribution to the conspiracy IMO... once again, a heartfelt thanks to the work and efforts of the Doctor.
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Bob Prudhomme - 09-04-2015
It is quite unfortunate that all of the government propaganda has brainwashed so many researchers into believing that just because a bullet entered JFK's skull, by necessity, that bullet had to exit the other side of his skull. It is time we began thinking for ourselves, and opened our minds to other possibilities.
Imagine that you had a bullet that could penetrate skull bone and only leave a tiny entrance wound. Once inside the skull, imagine that the very act of travelling through the brain was enough to cause this bullet to open up and, in many cases, disintegrate into many small pieces. This disintegration would, of course, cause the fragments to transfer all of their energy to surrounding tissue, and bring the fragments to an abrupt halt midway through the brain. There would be massive damage to the brain BUT, and this is very important, in many cases no part of the bullet would exit the brain, although, in many cases, there would be a large gaping wound somewhere on the other side of the skull from the entrance wound. HOWEVER, and this is also very important, the large gaping wound would not always be perfectly in line with the path of the bullet.
Can you guess what kind of bullet could accomplish such miraculous tasks? Believe it or not, this could be done with nothing more than the humble hollow point rifle bullet, available to handloaders at any sporting goods store. I myself have used these bullets in a .308 deer rifle, taking only head shots. It is not the bullet exiting the skull that "tears off a chunk of skull" on its way out. Such large blowouts are caused by the massive hydraulic pressure wave created by the rapidly expanding and disintegrating bullet coming to a halt in the brain. And, as I said, these blowouts are not always in line with the path of the bullet, as the hydraulic pressure will take the path of least resistance. I have shot deer with hollow point bullets in the side of the head, on level ground, and seen the top of the head blow off. I have also shot deer in the head with hollow point bullets and seen nothing at all come out, indicating complete break up and halting of the bullet in the brain.
While I have experience with hollow point bullets, I tend to believe the one that struck JFK's head was a more advanced form of hollow point bullet known as a frangible bullet. These bullets are made from a compressed metal powder that returns to its powder form under stress in a wound. The cloud of metal powder trying to travel through brain matter is even more lethal than the metal fragments from a hollow point bullet, and have an even greater guarantee of coming to a complete halt inside the skull.
The reason I believe the bullet was a frangible bullet is the observation, in the autopsy, of hundreds of dust like fragments visible in the x-rays of JFK's head. While a hollow point bullet might fragment into small pieces, it will not turn into dust. Lead is malleable, not brittle, and this one observation from the autopsy is enough to tell anyone with any hunting experience that JFK was not shot with a full metal jacket bullet.
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Jim DiEugenio - 09-04-2015
Good point Bob.
The path through the skull from entrance to exit does not have to be a straight line with certain types of ammo.
And because of the X-ray particles in front of the skull, it does not seem to depict a FMJ bullet.
BTW, the first writer to point this out was Howard Roffman in Presumed Guilty.
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Bob Prudhomme - 09-04-2015
David Josephs Wrote:Quote:Hi Dave
Thanks for posting this. I'm embarrassed to say this is the first time I've read this part of Weitzman's testimony.
Wasn't it Martin or Hargis, the two motorcycle cops at the left rear of the limo, who claimed the spray hit him so hard, it felt like a piece of concrete had hit him? I'm starting to wonder if he wasn't struck by the Harper Fragment.
At least your big enough to admit it, read it and move on... it amazes me as well the number of tidbits I come across that I had not come across before - every day it seems.
Aint the process of learning and sharing great!
After you mentioned that a few others things came to mind.
First, if Hargis was hit with Harper he'd have known it... he described it more of a cloud of blood and debris, like pellets I think he says...
What I do remember (thankx to a PM from vince P) is Boring at the ARRB saying that a large piece of bone was found in the Queen Mary and then recanting.
Is it possible this WAS Harper and it was Boring and the SS who repositioned Harper to be found the next day?
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/doc1.txt
"After independently recalling that they had searched the cars, Mr. Bo=
ring said that he (Boring) had discovered a piece of skull bone with brai=
n attached14 in the rear of the follow-up car (the black Cadillac convert=
ible called the "Queen Mary"), in the footwell just in front of the back =
seat bench. He said during follow-up questioning that the dimensions of t=
his skull bone-brain fragment were approximately 1" X 2". He said that he=
never picked it up or touched it himself, but that he simply pointed it =
out to Mr. Paterni (Mr. Paterni was Deputy Chief of the Secret Service)15=
=2E He said he did not write a report about this, and he did not know whe=
ther Mr. Paterni had written a report or not."16 For his part, Sam Kinney=
told me: " he found the piece of the back of JFK's head lying in the rea=
r seat of the bloody limousine, exactly were Clint Hill told the Warren C=
ommission he saw the "right rear" piece at (2H141; fellow agents Roy Kel=
lerman [2H85] and Jerry Behn[Sibert & O'Neill interview, 11/27/63] confir=
m this fact)! Sam told me it was "clean as a pin" and that it resembled a=
"flowerpot" or "clay pot" piece. Kinney added: "It was a big piece-half =
his head was gone." When I pressed him on this point and asked him if he =
was sure of the skull piece's orientation, he said, " I don't know what e=
lse it could have been but the back of his head." Realizing the obvious s=
ignificance of this find (made several hours BEFORE the "official" limous=
ine inspection instigated by ASAIC FLOYD BORING), Kinney put in a phone p=
atch to Admiral George Burkley (unfortunately, like many other events, th=
is radio traffic no longer exists on the heavily edited Air Force One rad=
io tapes that are available at the present time [I wonder why?]). Kinney =
had the piece in his suit pocket during his talk with Burkley and during =
the flight back to Washington. Upon landing at Andrew Air Force Base, Bur=
kley got a hold of the skull piece Kinney had."17
What makes Boring's recollections of the limo inspection particularly tro=
ublesome is the fact that he "made very clear during the [ARRB] interview=
that this fragment was in the rear of the follow-up car, not in the rear=
seat of the presidential limousine.Initially, ARRB staff members Zimmerm=
an and Horne had misunderstood Mr. Boring to mean that the bone-brain fra=
gment was in the rear seat of the President's limousine, and Mr. Boring t=
ook specific pains to correct our misunderstanding during follow-on discu=
ssion of this matter." However, Boring called Horne the next day to place=
a correction (and, thus, a retraction) on the record: he now felt that t=
he skull bone-and-brain fragment he saw "must have been in the back seat =
of the President's limousine, and not the follow-up car. He said that his=
stroke may perhaps have had something to do with his error." This may al=
so explain why Boring now has NO recollection of finding any bullet fragm=
ents at all in the limousine (only the skull fragment), and also may expl=
ain why he could not remember, one way or the other, the condition of the=
limousine's windshield and chrome strip.18
Man, that's crazy! How many places can one bone fragment be in? And how many people can find the same fragment? Somebody has to be lying.
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Jim Hargrove - 09-04-2015
Bob Mady Wrote:The wiki image is deceiving.
The occipital area is not just as illustrated, recommend reviewing other images to see.
Yes, I see what you mean. Some images show the occiput extending quite a bit higher than the one I posted from Wikipedia, although several others show it similarly positioned. (I'd post some examples here, but I don't want to push "fair use" copyright considerations too far. These images are easy to find.)
But even using the most extreme examples of an illustration depicting a high occipital area, I believe my original point still stands. There is simply no picture I can find on the net, including the one DJ posted above, showing the occiput extending high enough on a human skull that would allow the shard shown in the Dox diagram to be described as occipital or even partly occipital. It is simply too far forward on the head. And this, I believe, is the essential deception the HSCA and a host of other apologists have put forth over the decades.
Quote:What does it matter what the government tools and pundits claim should be seen, what can you see?
The government's deceptions matter a great deal to me, on this issue, on this case, and on a great many other questions of our time. When the government lies, every other liar with a similar tale to sell has a dependable sanctuary.
David Mantik's Definitive look at the Harper Fragment - Tracy Riddle - 09-04-2015
Any type of ammo, even a FMJ bullet, can deviate from its path once it hits something hard like a skull bone.