Peter Lemkin Wrote:

Kara Dellacioppa Wrote:Have you guys taken a look at Levenda's new book The Hitler Legacy? Im only a couple of chapters into it and Ive learned so much about Levenda's life and intelligence connections which before I felt like i had to piece together from various blogs and obscure podcasts trying to figure him out.
Anyway the occult obviously figures heavily in the book...

on another note. Ive never seen Jay Dyer mentioned here before and I just started reading and listening to him a few months ago...

Dyer and Levenda seem to both have murky agendas coming from different places. Sometimes I feel like the whole "deep politics" thing has been come its own upstart industry, especially with the internet, i suppose it always was.. however sometimes when these researchers sounds interesting with good material but beneath the surface, i feel like Im just being sold another ideology or religion.. Ed Opperman is a great interviewer but a total evangelical christian. Levenda is into the occult, lately I feel like Dyer who seems to admire Joseph P Farrell has his heart in the Eastern Orthodox Church, James Corbett is an anti state libertarian. I dont think anything is bad about believing in any of these things, its just when you can tell it skews the research...

btw, Joseph Farrell one time taught at this extremely right wing fundamentalist christian school here where I live in orange county (and to call a school "extreme fundamentalist christian" is saying something because there is a lot of competition here..

anyway I guess i should have started my own thread

meh, Im feeling cynical today..

Hi Kara, I've read Levenda's Hitler Legacy.......and his earlier books too. It was certainly obvious that he had an interest in the Occult. I guess we all have our biases and see the World through the filter of them and our own individual lives and beliefs. Personally, I think if one can just see what the person's belief system is and take that into account, many who one might not agree with 100% still have valid research to offer in part or on the whole, depending. The thing about the 'research community', if there really is such a thing, that has long bothered me is not their biases and slant, but the infighting and/or lack of willingness to work with many others, for the most part. Each usually have a very small group they work with and won't help out others. Not all follow that 'rule', but it seems to be the general case. Yes, Corbett is an anti-government libertarian who denies anthropogenic climate change, and I think that clouds some of his research a little, but leaves a lot of the rest of it unscathed and useful [to me]. It is simply helpful to know where 'someone is coming from', and sometimes it takes a bit of work to find out.

Kara Dellacioppa Wrote:

David Guyatt Wrote:I've now finished Levenda's The Dark Lord and it has been fascinating and informative reading. Levenda is very obviously knowledgeable and experienced in aspects of Crowley's Thelema based religion as well as Grants's system as well. I've come away from the book knowing and understanding a great more about these two than I previously had.

I also came away alarmed.

Both Crowley and Grant, in my view, are entirely wrong headed - and yet both have considerable followings. Both focused their entire occult systems on sexual techniques - sex magick (1) - as a means of gathering the necessary energy (usually described as "power") in order to thrust their consciousness into what Grant called the Mauve zone (what used to be called astral travelling). The difference between them and others, so far as I can judge, is that they actively pursued knowledge of the dark/negative side of creation - hence the "Dark Lord". And again, so far as I can judge, the results they obtained confirmed their expectations. No surprises there, then.

It is true that anyone who operates in this area, sooner or later, does have to confront and absorb their own shadow (2). Doing so results in that part of the life energy (libido) that streams through one that has hitherto been siphoned off by the shadow is ultimately recovered and becomes available for positive use. That, combined with the cleansing technique that Israel Regardie called the Middle Pillar exercise (the circulation of light), plus other techniques including breathing, focusing and concentration exercises etc., all combine with the use of what Jung called "Active Imagination" are patiently developed over an extended period of time, for the purpose of accessing "that place between sleep and awake" that was described by J M Barrie in his book Peter Pan.

That realm is neither here, nor there, and neither then or now. It is alien but also world-like. The golden rules when travelling to this "far abroad" is to be polite and considerate, patient and questioning. Open doors when confronted with them. Ask questions of the intelligences you meet. Again politely, even when the answers you may receive are abrupt. The face you present is the face you will meet.

Untold numbers have been visitors in that land. Far more than is ever realized.

I have never before spoken so openly about these things before for obvious reasons. It is a subject that is very easily misunderstood and misinterpreted. But times are changing. The whole purpose underlying this is to become more conscious and more individually responsible for who you are. Recovering energy from the personal Shadow has the added benefit of marginally reducing the energy available to the Collective Shadow, simply because the latter is the aggregation of all the former. This is why Jung said that "man is the origin of all coming evil" and that "the only real danger that exists is man himself. He is the great danger". Many people are aware of the fact that Crowley called himself the Beast and ascribed to himself the number "666" using Gematria. That number as most of us know biblically is said to e the number of the Devil. However, far fewer people are aware that the number 666 is actually the number of man.

Use of the occult techniques of power as exemplified by Crowley and Grant are, for me, abusive, dangerous, unnecessary and for the most part for entirely the wrong motives. Use of what are usually referred to as lower techniques: sex magick and drugs etc., to reach these ends are, as Levenda rightly points out dangerous - often very dangerous - because conscious control is relinquished and because it is quite likely that an unbalanced - even a marginally unbalanced - personality will be further tipped into neurotic - and God forbid, possibly even psychotic behaviours. Whomsoever teaches dangerous techniques to another who then falls into these ways bears a considerable degree of responsibility for the outcome. Their card will be marked.

Besides this, there is really no need to proceed with such brute force when far more controlled and sympathetic means and measures are available. Only impatience and imprudence would permit such trespassing. Properly trained and schooled, the time and experiences spent in the there and then can be safely brought back to the here and now under control --- for slow absorption and digestion. Digestion will take many, many years to achieve. Decades, probably.

I hope the foregoing is of use to someone. God knows who though. ::


(1) If not sex, then the use of drugs etc., could be used in place of the sex rite.
(2) This is considerably different to dealing with the Collective Shadow, however - a much more dangerous and ill considered idea.

Thank you for sharing this David, Its very thoughtful. Ive been trying to wrap my head about these issue for the past couple of years. I also think that its important to look at the political historical context out of which Crowley and his acolytes were created. I think its ignorant to smear everything considered "occult" as "Satanic", which is a Christian concept. Crowley was a creation of the British Empire. I just realized not to long ago that Annie Besant (Theosophist leader) was responsible for creating the Indian Congress Party.

Kara Dellacioppa Wrote:Im looking up the interview now. I wasnt' aware of Annie Besants connection to Marx.

In Webster Tarpley's Just to Weird book on Mitt Romney. he has a passage where he makes a connection of Karl Marx's works being used by British agents to de stabilize other European nations. Interesting that his collaborator was Engels, a guy from a wealthy industrialist family. In his expose of Mormonism, he points out that in the 19th Century, the British elite were also big fans of Mormonism and that Britain was one of the biggest recruitment countries for Mormonism.. Anyway he makes interesting analogies of how the Brits used protestantism in Korea, Marxism in Europe, the Bahai Faith in Iran and the Mormons in America to destabilize countries on several continents... And Theosophy in India, etc etc...

Magda Hassan Wrote:It was mostly with Eleanor Marx as Charlie had died by then I think. The Eleanor committed suicide because she was married to a cad.

I also remember Conan Doyle writing a very good Sherlock Holmes story on the Mormons. Can't recall the name though. One of the bigger stories not the short ones.

Kara Dellacioppa Wrote:

David Guyatt Wrote:I've now finished Levenda's The Dark Lord and it has been fascinating and informative reading. Levenda is very obviously knowledgeable and experienced in aspects of Crowley's Thelema based religion as well as Grants's system as well. I've come away from the book knowing and understanding a great more about these two than I previously had.

I also came away alarmed.

Both Crowley and Grant, in my view, are entirely wrong headed - and yet both have considerable followings. Both focused their entire occult systems on sexual techniques - sex magick (1) - as a means of gathering the necessary energy (usually described as "power") in order to thrust their consciousness into what Grant called the Mauve zone (what used to be called astral travelling). The difference between them and others, so far as I can judge, is that they actively pursued knowledge of the dark/negative side of creation - hence the "Dark Lord". And again, so far as I can judge, the results they obtained confirmed their expectations. No surprises there, then.

It is true that anyone who operates in this area, sooner or later, does have to confront and absorb their own shadow (2). Doing so results in that part of the life energy (libido) that streams through one that has hitherto been siphoned off by the shadow is ultimately recovered and becomes available for positive use. That, combined with the cleansing technique that Israel Regardie called the Middle Pillar exercise (the circulation of light), plus other techniques including breathing, focusing and concentration exercises etc., all combine with the use of what Jung called "Active Imagination" are patiently developed over an extended period of time, for the purpose of accessing "that place between sleep and awake" that was described by J M Barrie in his book Peter Pan.

That realm is neither here, nor there, and neither then or now. It is alien but also world-like. The golden rules when travelling to this "far abroad" is to be polite and considerate, patient and questioning. Open doors when confronted with them. Ask questions of the intelligences you meet. Again politely, even when the answers you may receive are abrupt. The face you present is the face you will meet.

Untold numbers have been visitors in that land. Far more than is ever realized.

I have never before spoken so openly about these things before for obvious reasons. It is a subject that is very easily misunderstood and misinterpreted. But times are changing. The whole purpose underlying this is to become more conscious and more individually responsible for who you are. Recovering energy from the personal Shadow has the added benefit of marginally reducing the energy available to the Collective Shadow, simply because the latter is the aggregation of all the former. This is why Jung said that "man is the origin of all coming evil" and that "the only real danger that exists is man himself. He is the great danger". Many people are aware of the fact that Crowley called himself the Beast and ascribed to himself the number "666" using Gematria. That number as most of us know biblically is said to e the number of the Devil. However, far fewer people are aware that the number 666 is actually the number of man.

Use of the occult techniques of power as exemplified by Crowley and Grant are, for me, abusive, dangerous, unnecessary and for the most part for entirely the wrong motives. Use of what are usually referred to as lower techniques: sex magick and drugs etc., to reach these ends are, as Levenda rightly points out dangerous - often very dangerous - because conscious control is relinquished and because it is quite likely that an unbalanced - even a marginally unbalanced - personality will be further tipped into neurotic - and God forbid, possibly even psychotic behaviours. Whomsoever teaches dangerous techniques to another who then falls into these ways bears a considerable degree of responsibility for the outcome. Their card will be marked.

Besides this, there is really no need to proceed with such brute force when far more controlled and sympathetic means and measures are available. Only impatience and imprudence would permit such trespassing. Properly trained and schooled, the time and experiences spent in the there and then can be safely brought back to the here and now under control --- for slow absorption and digestion. Digestion will take many, many years to achieve. Decades, probably.

I hope the foregoing is of use to someone. God knows who though. ::


(1) If not sex, then the use of drugs etc., could be used in place of the sex rite.
(2) This is considerably different to dealing with the Collective Shadow, however - a much more dangerous and ill considered idea.

Thank you for sharing this David, Its very thoughtful. Ive been trying to wrap my head about these issue for the past couple of years. I also think that its important to look at the political historical context out of which Crowley and his acolytes were created. I think its ignorant to smear everything considered "occult" as "Satanic", which is a Christian concept. Crowley was a creation of the British Empire. I just realized not to long ago that Annie Besant (Theosophist leader) was responsible for creating the Indian Congress Party.